A couple months ago, Brooklyn's Our Wicked Lady had to shut their doors due to circumstances far beyond their control.
When I was a young boy (probably like 27), I attended a hot sauce expo with some friends, followed by a show for Nick Cage and The Royal They at Our Wicked Lady. As a certain number of beers would have it, I fell asleep on the bands’ merch table, which Nick Cage later posted a picture of on their socials. It was pretty good.
That was my first time at Our Wicked Lady (often referred to as “OWL”). Over the years, especially after things opened up post-COVID, I found myself there regularly. Here are some of my favorite memories of the place: A Very Special Episode’s Fix Your Hearts or Die release show, the time a former child actor informed me he had been on The Adventures of Pete & Pete and then offered me drugs, my first-ish date with my current partner, and, of course, that time that Patrick Porter poured an entire beer on my head during AVSE’s set for no reason at all I didn’t do anything shut up.
OWL was started by Zach Glass, Keith Hamilton, and Wayne Gordon (of Daptone Records), all of whom met while working at Brooklyn Bowl. Though they initially planned for the space only to be used as a bar with attached practice spaces, it ended up becoming one of the Brooklyn DIY scene’s most beloved venues, what with its rooftop stage, green room, greener room (IYKYK), and annual Winter Madness competitions.
When OWL announced their closing this year, many of us had emotional reactions. It was a cultural hub for this scene and a pillar of our community. As a bandNada writer, I should point out that many of the bands on our website, and many mainstays of the East Williamsburg Econo Lodge, played OWL regularly.
I read several articles about why OWL was shutting down, but I wanted more of the story from the people most intimately involved. So I reached out to the remaining owners, Zach and Keith, and they gave me the story in their own words.
OWL's rooftop, full for another banger.
Now that the dust has settled a little bit, I wanted to talk about the community and legacy of Our Wicked Lady. How did OWL start?
Keith Hamilton: Zach and I used to live close to each other in Greenpoint. Zach's wife is a tattooer - the name of her studio is Flowerhouse. She was tattooing me, and when we were done, she was like, “Hey, do you want a ride home?” While driving me home, she mentioned that Zach was thinking about trying to open a bar with band rehearsal spaces next door. We, and our then third partner, Wayne, started chatting. We all knew from working at Brooklyn Bowl together that having a space with multiple revenue streams is really beneficial.
Zach Glass: I was in bands forever. That was how I had the idea for the bar with the rehearsal spaces, because I had been renting so many rehearsal spaces at various levels of quality. My band, Bugs In The Dark, was kind of on its denouement as we opened OWL.
Most people start something like this to fill a functional hole they see in the world around them. Was the need for rehearsal spaces that hole for you?
Zach: Yeah. And the idea that it could be its own community. Once Keith joined me and we were really like, “let's make this happen,” it was like, “oh! Far from being just functional, this could be so cool because you're creating an instant community that will meet each other and drink at the bar.” We didn't necessarily think it would be a venue. The space we found kind of dictated that.
Keith: We realized quickly that we were in the middle of nowhere. If we weren't event-driven, we wouldn't last long. I was the first one to actually see the space that we ended up in, and at the time, it was pretty much a warehouse. We built almost everything in that space. That was one of the things that made it so difficult for us - we had to take out a huge construction loan.
Zach: The loan required that we spend all of our money first before we could get the funds. It wasn't like we got the loan and then got to use it as we saw fit. So while it was incredibly helpful, it basically guaranteed that we opened with $0. Ideally, you want to open with 5 or 6 months of rent and expenses, and maybe hold off on finishing X, Y, and Z until money starts rolling in. From the jump, we were in a pretty precarious situation.
I read that you used to do all-ages shows as well - is that true?
Zach: Well, it wasn’t an all-ages space, but if the right opportunity came along, especially as Keith and I started families of our own, we would often open the doors on Saturdays or Sundays to daytime events - maybe, like, a kids’ band - and people could come with their families.
That’s awesome.
Zach: But post-COVID, when the insurance companies were doing everything they could to rip back money they lost from the pandemic, our insurance almost tripled. They pulled the policy we already had, which covered liability if people got hurt. I don't see how they're allowed to do this, because we had already signed the policy. They were like, “Oh, the thing that covers the liability for people under 21? It's not there anymore.”
Keith: Our broker, who's great, said, "All the insurance companies do not insure under 21 [shows] anymore unless you spend $50,000 more on your insurance a year.” So we had to stop doing that because it didn't make financial sense for us. They said, “They'll watch your Instagram.”
Zach: We literally couldn't have a kid's birthday party.
Keith: We never made one insurance claim in ten years. When we first started, our broker said, “Once you prove that you guys aren't a big liability, your insurance premiums typically will stay the same or go down.” And our premium went way up. One good thing that did come out of the pandemic is a lot of the venues started talking to each other about how the insurance is insane. Post-COVID became very, very difficult to turn a profit. It was already difficult!
The Inside of OWL, courtesy of patron Gabriel Abaud via OWL's Google Business Page.
There's a tendency for artists or people on the outside to be wary of [for-profit] venues, whereas a place like Our Wicked Lady is really more of a partner to the scene than, say, a LiveNation-run event center or similar entities.
Keith: There's definitely venues charging room rates higher than they need to, but these days, it's so hard for venues to make a profit. I hate when bands don't walk with money, but covering costs is a necessity. So you have to find that happy medium.
Zach: People felt Our Wicked Lady [was on their] side. That was something we were very proud of. However, these venues that people are more wary of? Maybe they're operating with shitty ruthlessness - that could make them more likely to survive. Our Wicked Lady was on the side of the artists as much as we could be: trying to make sure that the room rate was as low as possible, that the ticket prices were as low as possible, and that the bands got paid. The insurance stuff was something we would just talk about internally. But artists should have a better understanding. Maybe there's a larger conversation with some of these younger politicians trying to change New York’s approach to small businesses.
I think Katie Ortiz mentioned that recently in an interview - people don’t understand that venues might not have money either.
Zach: Katie is the kind of person who respects the scene and is in a band herself. She’s also trying to run with fair, good business practices. I wish all the best for Purgatory [where she books], because I relate to how she's doing things. It's a business, and it's brutal. Unfortunately, when you're connected and care, that can bite you in the ass.
In some ways, it's a partnership more than a transaction because everyone needs a place to play.
Keith: I'll never forget this. One night a few years ago, I was bartending on the roof. There was a great [lineup]. For whatever reason, they just didn't draw that much. One of the bands had a member you could tell was kind of a gun for hire. After finding out that the bands didn’t make any money, he came to me at the end of the show like, “I don't understand. There’s at least 30 people here drinking.” I'm going “30 people? This is a 200-cap room on a Wednesday. Yeah, the bar made money. But what about all my staffing fees, my rent, my insurance, my utilities, my this, my that? We actually lost money tonight.” And [then] it clicked in his mind.
Zach: We were navigating a difficult line. We weren't a cheap, trashy dive bar where you might be like, “the bathroom's gross - but the beers are $4.” But we also weren’t a place where you bitch about the beer being $15, but you'd still go, “You know, the ticket was $40.” We were not set up to handle a dip in the world market. People want to believe the best, strongest business will survive, but if people are getting rewarded for shitty business practices, then the people who are trying to do it right are consistently getting the short end of the stick.
Woof.
Zach: The fact is, venues are dropping like flies. Keith and I should have closed Our Wicked Lady over two years ago. We kept finding ways to convince ourselves - and our wives (laughs) - that it made sense to keep going. We didn't want to give up, but we were wrong. The writing was on the wall.
Keith: There was a lot of people thinking like, “When COVID ends, everyone's going to be going out so much!” That lasted six months. All the supply chains fell behind. You know, an ice machine breaks. That [used to cost] $50 - now $500. Instead of it coming in three days, it comes in three months. So you're dealing with that utility skyrocketing, your insurance skyrocketing, people actually going out less… All these issues compound.
Me being ruthlessly attacked by Patrick Porter. Picture by Jason Lee.
If that’s the case, then what would you tell someone who wants to start a venue at this point?
Keith: Find a millionaire to partner with? (laughs)
Zach: Make sure you know why you're doing it, because it's going to be hard. But don't be slow to adapt as your clientele and the area inform you.
Keith: Find someone that has done it well. I think we were a little naive, thinking, “we manage this huge room at Brooklyn Bowl. This will be smaller.” But managing and owning are two totally different worlds. Managing is just a small facet of what you need to run a venue. Get with people that have done it that will give you their time and help. If you have some money to get a consultant, I think it's worth it. Know what you don't know and get around people that do know.
What events were you most proud of in your time running OWL?
Zach: I think the thing that we are most proud of, from beginning to finish, was Winter Madness. We finished that first one right before the COVID shutdown happened, and it was so much more successful than we ever imagined. When we came back [from the pandemic], it grew and turned into this success on a lot of different levels. Financially, it totally saved what was one of the worst months of the year [Dry January]. But then it became this community-building thing. It made everyone so fucking happy.
Keith: It checked every box - Every box. In addition to the things Zach said, several of the bands had never played [OWL]. They may not even have been from Brooklyn, because we accepted people from [all over] the tri-state area. A lot of those bands would meet each other, and they'd end up on tour together. Some of them even ended up in each other's bands.
Keith Hamilton (left), Zach Glass (right). Courtesy of Our Wicked Lady, via their Google Business page.
Any examples?
Keith: One of the biggest examples is Ozzy [Silva], who runs Show Brain.
Oh, he competed?
Keith: He was in a band called In Circles for years.
Zach: They came, they didn't know anybody, and by the end of the first Winter Madness, he was in another band.
Keith: The year he competed, second place was Shred Flintstone, first place was Deadtooth. Now he's the drummer for Deadtooth. He's played with Shred Flintstone. He's the drummer for Pons, who also won Winter Madness. That's just one example. A lot of bands have gone on to become pretty well-known in the scene. I mean, we're good friends with Zach from Dead Tooth. They just released their first full length record. He said, basically, “We were able to do it because of the money won from Winter Madness.”
That's awesome.
Keith: The other point that we're really proud of was New York Night Train’s Soul Scream. That was a party that our partner, Wayne, really helped facilitate with [Jonathan] Toubin. Toubin used to do parties in Brooklyn Bowl when we worked there. That was mainly their brainchild, and it was a wonderful party.
Before we end, I just wanted to say that OWL has been pivotal to my life in New York. The first time I went to OWL, I fell asleep on a band’s merch table and they put it on Instagram, and I think I threw up in the bathroom that night.
(both laugh)
Zach: Nice.
Both of my bands played there semi-regularly. My partner and I had one of our first dates there. The end of the year show in 2023 [where Patrick Porter poured a full beer on my head] is one of my favorite New York memories. Thank you for fostering that community, and thank you for sharing your wisdom and knowledge with us. Do you have any other things you want to say or any projects coming up?
Keith: Keep an eye out. We're going to keep OWL Presents going for bookings here and there. We just needed some time to regroup.
Zach: I've never seen Keith look this rested!
They weren’t kidding! As of this week, OWL Presents announced that Winter Madness is coming to Main Drag next February. Sign up here for a chance to compete and continue this great community that Zach, Keith, Wayne, and their employees, partners, and friends helped build.
OWL outside, courtesey of Evan McNeeley, via OWL's Google Business Page.
Cover photo of Deadtooth hanging around by Seth Applebaum.
